Boxers or briefs? That’s the only binary that still matters at Urbody, a gender-fluid underwear line created by college friends Mere Abrams (they / them) and Anna Graham (she / her).

Since the new founders both still have day jobs, we called to ask how they dismantle gender norms by night, while still finding time for all that extra stuff like food and sleep.

6 P.M.
ANNA: I work for a fashion apparel company. I oversee all of our distribution from Europe and China, and then I help startups with all of their back-end management. So all the logistical stuff that’s not so pretty.

MERE: I’m a therapist. I’ve been working with queer and trans young people and adults for almost a decade now… I grew up in a place that had pretty rigid gender norms. When I got to college, I started to really explore my sexuality and gender. But as I learned and felt more aligned in my presentation due to my medical transition, the fact that fashion didn’t really cater to bodies like mine became a big source of my struggles [with] gender dysphoria and mental health. In doing [therapy] work, I saw there were other people struggling with the same things, and that fashion had the potential to not just be a symbol of style, but really play a role in our sense of self.

7 P.M.
ANNA: When I get home, I always meditate for 10-15 minutes. Sometimes I use an app called Synctuition, but otherwise I sit outside in my backyard. It just calms me so I can go into my evening feeling less stressed… I love to cook! I like a good steak, a good salad, and some veggies.

MERE: I go right into parent mode. My 16-month-old goes to sleep around 8:30, so that hour and a half is precious time to spend together. When my partner is around to watch the little one, I’ll cook dinner… Some baked tofu and roasted cauliflower, and maybe some polenta. After dinner, we’ll watch the sun set or take a walk with the dog. Then it’s the bedtime routine, so bath time, reading a couple books, then we sing a couple songs.

8 P.M.
MERE: I’m checking in with Anna, making sure we don’t have anything last minute that came up… We want to create something that not just looks good, but that makes a difference in how people feel about themselves on a daily basis. Underwear’s the first thing I put on in the morning, so when I put on a pair that doesn’t accommodate my hips or has extra material in front because it assumes I have a body part I don’t have, that’s not a great way to start my day. So we really wanted to address that problem with our first collection.

ANNA: Traditionally in fashion, we’ve been so trained to work within the binary. There’s a women’s pattern and a men’s pattern, and those patterns have been around for decades. They assume somebody’s shape of their body, so we had to redo what people had been doing for so long. It took 2 1/ 2 years to develop our products to fit across the gender spectrum.

9 P.M.
ANNA: I’m in bed listening to a podcast or watching a show. I’m really into MasterClass at the moment… Howard Schultz did a masterclass that was very inspiring to me. His view on business and the way he’s created such an incredible brand…  just as a startup and someone going through it, I think it’ll help me personally and how I navigate as a co-founder.

MERE: Reality TV is my guilty pleasure, whether it’s Real Housewives or some other wonderful but simultaneously terrible show. That’s usually how you’ll find me unwinding.

10 P.M.
ANNA: I’m usually on Instagram, which isn’t great for me. [Laughing.] I’m trying to get out of that routine… Then I just fall asleep. I’m usually pretty exhausted by the end of the day, so it’s not hard for me to get to sleep.

MERE: I’m into baths. It helps relax me… And I’ve been getting really into eye masks recently, so I have a weighted one, a satin one, one with built-in headphones. Then I’ll turn on a podcast like Hidden Brain—it’s a psych-related podcast—or The Daily and drift off.